• Re: COBOL?

    From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Fri May 5 19:47:52 2023
    Re: Re: COBOL?
    By: Dr. What to Dumas Walker on Fri May 05 2023 07:20 am

    I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.


    if they worked for my state govt they would.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to MRO on Sat May 6 08:19:00 2023
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.


    if they worked for my state govt they would.

    *sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is the gov't.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sat May 6 09:14:00 2023
    I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good
    o
    for 20 years.


    if they worked for my state govt they would.

    They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more elsewhere,
    even as a contract employee.


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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to MRO on Sun May 7 07:11:00 2023
    MRO wrote to Dr. What <=-

    I never said that COBOL was gone. But as a long term career, COBOL is a poor choice. Now, COBOL plus <something else> may be a good thing in most companies today. But a COBOL-only programmer isn't going to have a good job for 20 years.


    if they worked for my state govt they would.


    Yeah, I don't think the idea was to put all of your eggs in one basket,
    says the guy with FORTRAN in his handle. :)




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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dr. What on Sun May 7 07:12:00 2023
    Dr. What wrote to MRO <=-

    *sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is
    the gov't.

    California EDD was backlogged during COVID and blamed their COBOL code.
    I bet they were waiting on budget for another dozen AS/400s.



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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dumas Walker on Sun May 7 07:30:00 2023
    Dumas Walker wrote to MRO <=-

    if they worked for my state govt they would.

    They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more
    elsewhere, even as a contract employee.

    Yeah, but after working for a local government for a time, the key isn't
    the salary - it's the PENSION. Keep your head down, don't make waves,
    last 5 years and you could start collecting a pension when you retire.

    The floor was something like 5% after 5 years, scaling upwards every
    year. 5 percent of your salary FOR LIFE. Once you get in the habit of
    doing just enough to not get fired and don't come onto anyone's radar,
    the years just keep piling up.



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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon May 8 07:45:00 2023
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to MRO <=-

    Yeah, I don't think the idea was to put all of your eggs in one basket, says the guy with FORTRAN in his handle. :)

    I have his brother, Microsoft FORTRAN, working on my NuXT system.
    It actually works pretty good for something that old.


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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Mon May 8 15:48:00 2023
    They would here, too, *except* they could get paid a lot more
    elsewhere, even as a contract employee.

    Yeah, but after working for a local government for a time, the key isn't
    the salary - it's the PENSION. Keep your head down, don't make waves,
    last 5 years and you could start collecting a pension when you retire.

    The floor was something like 5% after 5 years, scaling upwards every
    year. 5 percent of your salary FOR LIFE. Once you get in the habit of
    doing just enough to not get fired and don't come onto anyone's radar,
    the years just keep piling up.

    That depends on the state you live in. States like Kentucky and Illinois,
    who were busy cutting benefits for new hires vs. funding their obligation to retirement, and then trying to get the fed government to allow them to
    declare the system bankrupt, are not good places to go like they might have been in the 1990's and before.

    Kentucky cut out the 5% annual COLA increment/increase 20 years ago. They didn't really cut it out, they just quit paying it about the same time they quit paying their retirement funding obligation. One year, someone
    realized they had a whole group of people who had not got raises in years
    had fallen UNDER the federal poverty level. So they got just enough of
    an increase (only that group, and not anywhere near the cost of living) to
    get them back above the poverty level. IIRC, it may have happened twice.

    Until a year ago, very few long term employees that had less than 20 years experience had ever got any kind of annual increment or cost of living pay increases during their entire state government career, beyond the initial
    5% they got for making it to the end of probation. The only pension most
    of them will get is what they put in their 401 or 457 account which, unless they were smart and moved a bunch of their money to the low-but-guaranteed
    fix rate option, is not looking real good lately.

    I doubt KY is the only state government where this has become true, but
    about the only people who they can recruit and keep now are people who
    cannot hold down a job anywhere else, people who are married to someone
    that has a good paying job with good benefits, or people who are holding
    down 2 (or more) jobs. The rest stay long enough to get experience and then leave for someplace with better pay, benefits, and maybe even full-time remote work.

    The only IT staff they hire now are contract employees.


    * SLMR 2.1a * 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.

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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Mon May 8 15:49:00 2023
    *sigh* Yes. I keep forgetting about the technical backwater which is the gov't.

    California EDD was backlogged during COVID and blamed their COBOL code.
    I bet they were waiting on budget for another dozen AS/400s.

    Kentucky was blaming "the computer program" for the UI issues during the
    same period, but the real problem was that they had stopped staffing the
    area in charge of updating the code. They only had 2 programmers on
    staff to try to make all of the changes required to override the rules of "normal, non-pandemic processing."


    * SLMR 2.1a * Got my tie caught in the fax... Suddenly I was in L.A.

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  • From Feoh@VERT/DECAFBAD to unixl0rd on Wed May 17 02:29:03 2023
    Re: COBOL?
    By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 07:09 pm

    Asking whether a given niche language is a good one to learn for job purposes is rough.

    I follow a gent on Twitter who is one of the more well known experts on IBM mainframes and Cobol and the like, as well as integrating them with modern systems.

    He recently lost his job with IBM, and was casting around looking for new employment, and it was rough.

    Does that mean you shouldn't learn COBOL or IBM mainframe technology? Not at all! It could be an interesting experience and improve the depth and breadth of your understanding of technology as a whole.

    But are your chances good for being able to walk into a COBOL job because you tool this course? Maybe, but I certainly wouldn't bet the farm on it :)

    To my mind, contributing to open source and building a resume of code people can review and appreciate matters a lot more, as well as job experience.

    The thing employers want to know is: Can you do what they need?

    Good luck, have fun, and keep learning no matter what you do!

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Feoh on Thu May 18 07:13:00 2023
    Feoh wrote to unixl0rd <=-

    He recently lost his job with IBM, and was casting around looking for
    new employment, and it was rough.

    Does that mean you shouldn't learn COBOL or IBM mainframe technology?
    Not at all! It could be an interesting experience and improve the depth and breadth of your understanding of technology as a whole.

    I was thinking of people learning the basics of COBOL or RPG as an
    additional skill. I thought that might come in handy, and for the jobs
    looking for those skills, finding someone not near retirement age might
    set you apart from any competition for the role.

    (As I look at my own career, and realize I'm one of those guys nearing retirement age... except with no mainframe experience.)


    To my mind, contributing to open source and building a resume of code people can review and appreciate matters a lot more, as well as job experience.


    Modern languages are a little more conducive to home projects, in my
    opinion. A Github page with utilities written in BASH, a Python script,
    or PHP that you use personally seems likely.

    A COBOL program that collates inventory orders and updates onhand
    quantities? Not something you'd code in your spare time (or at home!)




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  • From CDP@VERT/DMINE to unixl0rd on Thu Jun 1 20:10:53 2023
    Re: COBOL?
    By: unixl0rd to All on Tue May 02 2023 07:09 pm

    I just found out that IBM offers a free introductory COBOL course:

    https://www.ibm.com/blogs/ibm-training/free-course-announcing-learning-cobol rogramming-with-vscode/

    Is there actual demand for new COBOL developers? I thought companies were on

    Thoughts?

    ... It is always darkest just before you turn on the lights.

    If COBOL is something you're interested in it's definitely still worth having it on your resume. I probably wouldn't put it at the TOP of the resume (depending on the job your applying for), but there is still some good demand for COBOL programmers out there.
    Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) the cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire are still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding a lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is still significant.

    It's proven to be a very resilient language despite it's faults, and more reliable than many of the newer ones to come along over the last 20+ years (IMO).
    -----------------------
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  • From unixl0rd@VERT/BEERS20 to CDP on Thu Jun 1 19:45:00 2023
    Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) the cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire are still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding a
    lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is still significant.

    I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

    ... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to unixl0rd on Thu Jun 1 22:05:37 2023
    Re: Re: COBOL?
    By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

    Speaking from experience, where I work (as is the case everywhere) the cobol programmers are aging out and retiring. The new ones we hire are still in the same general age range and I'm sure they are demanding a lot of money since the pool is getting smaller and the codebase is still significant.

    I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.


    must be nice to have the time to do that.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/THEGATEB to unixl0rd on Fri Jun 2 07:21:00 2023
    unixl0rd wrote to CDP <=-

    I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

    In general, learning other languages, especially on different platforms, teaches you a great deal and make you think a little differently in the programming languages that you use.

    Back when I was in college, they taught Pascal as the starting language. Not because it was a great language that you would use in the Real World, but because you would often take the ideas that you learned in Pascal and apply them to other languages like FORTRAN or COBOL (ex: minimize GOTO statements).

    For me, learning about Python's async code helped me a great deal in understanding the same ideas in C# that I use for work.

    It also helps to get a difference perspective from other systems with other constraints. At work, we had a problem where a newby programmer basically sent 16GB through a system that assumed that data would be 16MB and basically gummed everything up. The root problem was that this newby programmer had never encountered a system that didn't have more than enough resources to do whatever he want. For those of us who grew up with computers with 16K, we always think about asking if we have enough resources.


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  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to unixl0rd on Fri Jun 2 08:44:21 2023
    Re: Re: COBOL?
    By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

    I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be honest I am kinda bored. Learning COBOL might give me the stimulation I need right now even if it doesn't land me a job.

    There's a lot of demand for other programming languages too. Lately, several of the projects I've worked on have used C# (Windows desktop software), and there's a lot of demand for mobile development too (Kotlin or Java on Android, and Swift or Objective-C on iOS). C++ and C are used for some projects, and so on.. Depends on what you'd be working on.

    Nightfox

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  • From CDP@VERT/DMINE to unixl0rd on Fri Jun 2 19:29:29 2023
    Re: Re: COBOL?
    By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

    I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be hone

    ... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!

    Coincidentally I have a book sitting on my desk in front of me that I had tucked away for years and never used. Sams Teach Yourself Cobol in 21 Days. I've actually been going through that in my spare time just to do something with the book before I pass it on. I work mostly as an admin in infrastructure so the bulk of my 'coding' is really scripting and ansible playbooks.

    We have young developers who might be able to use it though. It's fun watching Java devs wrapping their heads around Cobol, but they seem to do ok. It's unique compared to some of todays languages but not terrible to learn at all. -----------------------
    CDP
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  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to CDP on Sat Jun 3 09:56:36 2023
    Re: Re: COBOL?
    By: CDP to unixl0rd on Fri Jun 02 2023 07:29 pm

    Re: Re: COBOL?
    By: unixl0rd to CDP on Thu Jun 01 2023 07:45 pm

    I've got about fifteen years of experience as a web developer and to be hone

    ... I BM. You BM. We all BM for IBM!

    Coincidentally I have a book sitting on my desk in front of me that I had tucked away for years and never used. Sams Teach Yourself Cobol in 21 Days. I've actually been going through that in my spare time just to do something with the book before I pass it on. I work mostly as an admin in


    get back to us in 21 days.
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